Quick Guide to Toreador Prince decks
I've been playing Toreador Prince decks again on JOL and they have been doing remarkably well. But I always use the Group 1/2 or group 2/3. Makes me wonder what can be done with other groups. And what other vamps (titled) are used as support. ***I wanted to write a blog on "It's not better, its Different!" rant/discussion that is a precursor to this blog. (why use other groups when Toreador 1/2 is SO good. Ugh, so annoying.) But that is still in the collecting-thoughts process. Next week perhaps.
So this blog is the short short version of comparisons of Toreador Prince/Justicar. I won't list the Toreador Princes but will just make notes that you can confirm via various deck builders.
The idea is for readers to look at these comparisons and will give you an example how to play to certain groupings strengths and not just use the same library with a different crypt. I believe that this lesson has to be learned by many players, old and new. Otherwise, one is just stuck using the older vampires. But I digress.
Toreador Group 1/2
- Home of the AAA decks (Anson, Anneke, Alexandria). Strong abilities with full set of disciplines.
Strengths - All the vamps have strong abilities. Can get support princes of Rake, Calebros, Volker (dependent on focusing on PRE or CEL)
Conclusion: This is the main choice of Toreador title decks. We know its good so I won't focus on it.
Toreador Group 2/3
- Get all the group 2 vamps but in exchange for Anson and Anneke, you get Ira Rivers and Madame Guil... AND Jaroslav Pascek! Jaroslav, Ira Rivers with 2nd trad is 3 intercept as oppossed to the normal 2 (Ira only against political actions).
- Ira is good. Eyes of Argus, Quicken Sight, Eagle sight, Telepathic Misdirection. Look into abusing her ability. Good stuff.
- Pascek and Madame has foritude for forced march. Pascek, Francois, Klaus, Suzanne Kadim and Antoinette has obf. Strong bleed/vote at stealth that not possible at group 1/2.
- Micheal Luther is awesome.
Deck Idea: If want a unique deck, you can combine, prince and Magiji! Falhu Shibaba for Forced march angle or Kisha Bhimji for obfuscate [cel obf AUS]. Add a No Secrets or three...
Toreador Group 3/4
- This one is harder to consider for Toreador and not think about Titled Cam in general. Who does one get?
Eugene - Only a primogen, but goes very well with Madamne Guil.
Can have a strong crypt of Madame Guil, Annabelle Triabell, Eugene, Muhandis, Fahd al-Zawba`a, (adding support of Mustafa the Heir perhaps), and abuse the hell out of Toreador Grandball with freak drive and forced march. Add some third traditions and embraces and have Annabelle Triabell go to town.
- This is good for a meta game where intercept is prevalent.
Toreador Group 4/5
- This is the hardest one because of the limit of what is available. Can a Toreador Prince(ish) deck be made that is viable? What does one get that you don't get in other decks?
- The Dominate is interesting... Rafael de Corazon, Montecalme, Epikasta Rigatos makes a good Govern chain. Ransam, The Old Man and Sheva Carr at the bottom. But why them as opposed to Ventrue? Well Rafeal has OBF, but so does Arika.
- Abilities? Epikasta Rigatos is good but one needs a small deck to really use his special. Montecalme ability is nice, but no real steath and no multi-act.
CONCLUSION
--- I think that a Toreador PRINCE deck is NOT viable (in comparison to other groups), there is not enough specials, that make it worth it as opposed to Ventrue (who are very strong in 4/5).
--- BUT that's okay! Toreador Group 4/5 have still a lot going for it that is not a Prince themed (except for the Vidal Jarbeaux idea, see below!). Below are some things that make one want to use Toreador group 4/5, particularly in Tornaments.
1) Rafael de Corazon - Get OBF and Alexandria becomes not that great. I know that it seems like not a great ability, but for those who go to tournaments, how often does AAA hit the table? I thought so. :-) Using Rafael with Flurry of Action for Bleed/Vote is strong. Weenie AUS as support to flush out AI and bounce with Revelations.
2) Montecalme is a interesting vampire who I haven't seen play yet. His ability almost always ensures that he can get a voter cap off. He also has DOM so 2nd Tradition with Obedience and Deflection (since you remain untapped) is good. I would use him with Epikasta Rigatos. Montecalme versus Mary Anne Blaire? If one goes pure AUS DOM, Mary wins out. But mary has no stealth discipline at all, while Montecalme has CEL and obt. (not to mention Grand Ball of course). Resist the Earth's Grasp is great card. Stealth and man long for Majesty. The 6 cap prince Vasily is good support.
3) Vidal Jarbeaux is cool. A version of Mata Hari but with a Bleed discpline. Options:
--- add to Title guys mention above and play the Vote locations of other clans. He can even play one parity shift. :)
--- Presence bleed deck (has obf) and add wall allies like Ambrosius.
Okay, so this blog did not go exactly how I expected but it did give me a interesting ideas for Toreador Group 3/4... will make that deck soon and report back.
Adam
On the topic of Ira Rivers, my friend Matt Guinn has built several decks around him, and primarily for his special. The ability to cycle cards should not be underestimated. One of the first erratas to the game came from Stu abusing the hell out of Wake with Evening's Freshness in front of LSJ's face, which led to the "do not replace" clause.
ReplyDeleteI think Vidal can play parity shift twice. Once as a prince and once as a justicar.
ReplyDeleteI have a version of the toreador fortitude deck group 3/4. It has acquired some vps for me in tournaments and won a few casual games.
ReplyDeleteI think you're underestimating Toreador Group 4/5.
ReplyDeleteYes, the DOM angle seems odd at first, but you have a strong lineup of vampires as you have noted. DOM actually has lots of nasty actions at 0-stealth (Mind Rape, Dominate Kine, Graverobbing) so combining it with Toreador Grand Ball seems like a natural fit. Rafael, Montecalme, and Epikasta unblockably Mind Raping your vampires is pretty nasty (though I haven't seen anyone try that with Group 4/5 yet).
The problem with Princes, is that there aren't that many of them to begin with. Group 4/5 only has 2 Toreador Princes compared to the 5 you get in 1/2 or 2/3. So that's a major problem from the start. However Epikasta has a good special and Vasily is quite cheap. Although not quite a Prince, Vidal can play Parity Shift or Second Tradition twice (once as Prince, once as Justicar). With a good supporting cast of voting Toreador (Thomas the cheapest Primogen at 4, and vote canceling Kateline), it shouldn't be too hard to call a Praxis Seizure or two if necessary. If you're willing to de-emphasize Auspex, you can get a bunch of cheap Princes like Tara and Mustafa and 4-cap Primogen Reginald. Access to 3 different 6-cap Princes with CEL/pre or cel/PRE ain't all that bad. Victor and Emily might even fit in if you're doing the DOM route. If you're willing to cross sect lines, you can also snag a cheap 3 votes with Cardinal Klaus.
Overall I can see a pretty reasonable deck with:
Thomas (get a Praxis!)
Reginald (get a Praxis!)
Vasily
Tara
Mustafa
?Maybe Victor?
Kateline (get a Praxis!)
Epikasta
Vidal (wannabe Prince)
Montecalme
Rafael
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